Macronutrient Experiment

Thats the one I was refering to as the only cardio workout. Plyo would be both.

I didn't read a lot of negativity in the article and I was looking for it. There was some, otherwise it would sound like the damn infomercial.

Ummm ... Kenpo X seemed cardioish to me as well. Kicking and punching ain't exactly strength training. heh.

It did a decent job of explaining the system although I did disagree with some of it. To me, if you are doing the classic version, there is only one real day of cardio. Plyometrics, while it does keep your heart rate up, could be considered as a strength workout. Almost every move is a form of squat. It's just geared towards speed and agility.
Although some consider circuit training to be for muscle "tone" it is gaining ground as a legitimate way to train for size and strength. The weight lifting guys just call it super setting. Also the pause button works wonders for resting between sets.

I think that writeup has an unfairly negative attitude about the P90X eating plan. Not that I love the eating plan, but their blanket statement that the first two phases are low-carb is not really true. The first phase is low carb, the second phase is moderate carb, and the third phase is high carb. And the book says to only do the first phase however long it works for you, that might be 3 days or it might be longer than the month for someone with a lot of weight to lose. Also I think that a 40/40/20 which is basically what the phase 2 is, is a sustainable and even necessary diet for some people. They seem to think everyone needs the same diet, which I am convinced is not true.

They also suggest that X is "mainly geared toward improving muscular endurance, muscle tone, and cardiovascular fitness." Mainly geared, perhaps, but I think I have gained significant muscle mass doing it. It's all about how you approach it, and to me once you gain the muscular endurance to make it through the workouts with grace, you can go hard enough at each lift to cause significant muscle growth (of course that will depend heavily on individual body chemistry and such). Muscle tone doesn't really exist; shame on them for mentioning it. And I'd argue that while X does contain some cardio, I'd call it a medium amount rather than a lot.

I'd say it's a decent writeup, but it's not correct on all points.

That's a really good write up. I don't see anything there that I disagree with. I couldn't imagine doing this a year ago. I probably would not have done it if I didn't pass the fit test.

I read some people going through it (who probably shouldn't) and they say that they run in place a lot when things get too intense. I'm all for pushing oneself, but if you're skipping sections of the workout, why bother.

I also don't expect whatever results they're touting. I'll get what I get. If I like it, I'll continue, if I don't, I'll try something else. So far, it seems to be doing me fairly well. I've been gaining weight with more muscle than fat, it appears. That is my goal.

Thought you may want someone else's opinion on P90X (from WebMD website)

http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/fe
atures/the-p90x-system

Obviously, my 2 weeks of eat your calories, ignore your macros didn't go as planned. I ended up losing weight towards the end of last week because I went on maintenance. I made an interesting observation. It took about a week to get some real gain going during the first phase and when I went back down to maintenance, it was a week before any trends could be discerned. I think 1900-2100 is not quite maintenance, it's a little too low.

The macro makeup seemed to have little effect, although admittedly, I didn't really deviate much from the the 50/30/20 makeup because of habit.

cal 1975
cho 249g (48.3%)
pro 185g (36.0%)
fat 36g (15.7%)

Results over 2 weeks.
Actual Starting weight 156.6
Start BF % 14.6
Actual End : 153.8
End Bf% 14.6
Gain: -2.8lb fat, 0lb muscle.

Results over 4 weeks.
Actual Starting weight 153.4
Start BF % 14.8
Actual End : 153.8
End Bf% 14.6
Gain: -0.2lb fat, -0.2lb muscle.

I went virtually nowhere over this experiment. But having the last two weeks off for back recovery obviously almost everything I did the previous two weeks.

physicsdiet.com/Chart.ashx?t=WeightL
os
s&s=2010-05-14&e=2010-06-13&u=billb

Last day of eat what the hell ya want.
I'm gonna miss it :)

cal 2845
cho 321 (46.6)
pro 233 (33.8)
fat 60 (19.7)

Results :
Actual Starting weight 159.8
Start BF % 13.5
Actual End : 161.8
End Bf% 14.0
Gain: 1 lb muscle 1 lb fat

Average gain over the 30 day Macro experiment .54 lbs per week with a 1 to 1 ratio fat to muscle
Charts www.physicsdiet.com/Public.aspx?u=da
ns
tout&d=2010-06-12

Conclusion: Although I gained more weight during eat what the hell ya want than on the stricter macro, I gained a ratio of 1:1 on both diets. The reason for the lower gain on the stricter diet is I ate an average of 100-200 cals less and had a tad harder work schedule. I don't think it really matters as much as total caloric intake does.

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/13/2010 (07:21)

The particulars.
current stats
Gain weight with weight training only 2600-2800 cal
Maintenance with weight training only 2300-2400 cal
avreage cals burned with 45 min cardio 300

Goal: Maintain weight / burn fat / gain muscle
measured progress BF% scale weight and tape measure

The macro's

Cardio only day: 40 40 20 1800-2000 cal
cardio plus strength days: 2700-2900 cal
900-1000 cals at 40 40 20 for 1/2 day
1800-1900 cals at 50 30 20 for 1/2 day

The workout: P90X Classic phase 3 with extra cardio on strength days

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/13/2010 (07:15)

"Work Out Pig Out Cardio Off"

Well, I've got to read the whole article, but looks like an interesting idea. Maybe after I finish my X/Insanity cycle I could consider trying something of this style. Anyway, it is all good as long as you don't go the "get big and fat" route... www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus
cle-gain/
general-philosophies-of-muscl
e-mas
s-gain.html though I did read in a forum that he said he was pushing his gut out for the marketing campaign in these photos. Still, that's a hell of a bulk/cut cycle on that guy.

It does seem extreme at first until you break it down. Essentially I go back on the diet I had to lose weight only with more calories. And after workouts you eat a days worth of calories with our old macro modified slightly. The exercise portion is basically P90X doubles only with less cardio. I did that for 90 days I reckon I can do this for 30 and see what happens. Besides, I'm a morning cardio lover so this sets up perfectly for me as I prefer to lift in the afternoon / pm.
The only time you eat differently is after a strength session. 3 times a week.
D30H bring wings it is!

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/12/2010 (09:56)

This seems very strict, Dan. You're micro'ing your macros all day long. Plus a lifting and cardio regiment that ain't for sissies. Impressive. I'd like to nominate the program name of D30H. The tagline is Bring Hooter's wings!

WOPOCO This is my next macro nutrient / timing experiment
In a nut shell Work Out Pig Out Cardio Off

Length : 30 days
to save my self typing the program is described here.

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm

GF points out that the other three meals today were super clean... but I found the best BBQ restaurant anywhere near Ann Arbor today.
no smoking? Well you can't do it inside anymore, that's why they had the smoker in the parking lot. Going to do some smoking of our own... probably Monday.
Never noticed there's an Orion slave girl in the emoticons before. Nice.

cal 1929
cho 222g (56.6%)
pro 113g (28.9%)
fat 25g (14.5%)

(and rum)

Everything yesterday was jacked... I went to the fruit beer and cider tasting at the local brewpub. And while they had a nice veggie spread, they also had other food that I was digging... and eating trying not to get super wasted... still took about an hour hanging out downtown before I could drive us home. So I guess, with my recent carb restriction, it was carb refeed... although GF pointed out that beer is probably not what they want you to refeed with when they talk about it... probably true. But I did it! LOL

I think I found the root cause for the EE! I thought this was the eat what you "Feel" like eating period when it's really eat what the hell you want. I got it now :)

Absolutely fair. This is all about self discovery. We will get our target ratios nailed, calories per day and get Dan's EE under control.

I need to get a better idea of where I usually eat before I decide on a target macro. I'm not sure if I'll be looking for 50/30/20 or 40/40/20. I suspect that I gain muscle more easily on the 50 but that I lose a lot more easily on the 40 as limiting my carbs seems to supress my appetite much better. Also when I'm trying to eat even carbs to protein workouts are HARD. But then again it might totally be down to different calorie intakes between eating those ways. So basically, as you constantly say, Bill, I don't really know until I track.

cal 2015
cho 234g (45.1%)
pro 183g (35.3%)
fat 45g (19.6%)

Welcome aboard!

cal 2611
cho 295 (48.1%)
pro 220 (35.8%)
fat 44 (16.1%)

sah-weet! The more the merrier. What is your target macro? 50/30/20?

I'm going to join you guys when I'm tracking all my daily intake... I've been working on gradually getting my common items in. I'm thinking I'll track carefully while I do Insanity, after I finish the X.

cal 2069
cho 278g (50.6%)
pro 171g (31.1%)
fat 45g (18.3%)

Lol, you dug up an old one there!

cals 2844
cho 367 (53%)
pro 191 (21.6%)
fat 60 (19.4%)

Can't really remember much of what I did yesterday, but for some reason I can remember what I was doing when this story broke. I was on my way to school at Henry Ford for another exciting round of COBOL programming.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T09XWRkq5M

Dan's blog post starts at about 1:59.

It's Detroit, she should have considered kevlar.

And from today. I don't think weight loss will be a concern :)

Cal 3203
cho 354 (43.8)
pro 186 (23)
fat 119 (33.2)

Busted! I did "feel" like eating at hooters :)
My curiosity was aroused so I tracked

Cals 2938
cho 244 (36.5%)
pro 167 (25.0%)
fat 114 (38.4%) Yowser!

Dan, you're a closet EE. I knew it all along.

Holy smokes! An 1800 calorie 100 gram fat meal :)
Good thing I worked all night and all day the next day lol.
Is this where I post an emotional blog about why oh why did I do this? hehe

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/8/2010 (19:08)

Actually, this might help.

www.myfitnesspal.com/nutrition-facts
-c
alories/hooters

Sweet! I was hoping they did. Otherwise I prob lost weight again :)

I think Dallas Hooters are known the world over for having the most calories in their wings.

Welcome back.

Well, I just got back from Dallas again and did not track for 2 days. I may go back and enter the data. Anyone know how many calories are in Hooter's hot wings? :)
I think we have pretty much satisfied the requirements for the test. I am going to finish off eat what the hell I want week just to satisfy my curiosity. I'll just post final results Sunday morn.

So are we done here? If not, I'll keep logging and spitting out my ratios. If anything, it keeps me just a wee bit more honest. I mean, I keep logging regardless, but should I keep spouting off here is my question.

cal 2049
cho 289g (52.9%)
pro 165g (30.2%)
fat 41g (17.0%)


Edited by: BREWMASTERBILL at: 6/7/2010 (20:25)

cals 2746
cho 350 (50.5)
pro 184 (26.6)
fat 71(23)

This was absolutely helpful to me as well. Information is power!

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/6/2010 (20:29)

cal 1907
cho 255g (51.5%)
pro 151g (30.5%)
fat 40g (18.0%)

Sounds good. I like how this turned out. I've made a number of personal discoveries. (Cue the background orchestra music)

1) ideal / manageable gain range for me is ~2500-2600 (yours is higher, which is cool)
2) maintain is definitely 2000.
3) The 50/30/20 diet isn't THAT hard to stick to. I think I can make exceptions from time to time for sure, but as a rule, I'll stay around 50/30/20.

Glad the back is getting on track! I do believe the 50 30 20 baseline is fine as long as I add calories on heavy work days. I am going to edge it closer to 2700 - 2800 and that should put it right where I need to be (adding 300 cal protien drink on heavy work days).
I am also going to be tweeking the workout, I did it today and really liked the format.
I'm also revoking the beer ban too :)

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/6/2010 (14:51)

So it sounds like you'll want to stick with the baseline diet as it's showing you some good results.

During this week I did eat whatever the hell I wanted and this does include a few beers here and there along with some actual soda at lunch times. I basically ate semi - crappy but within caloric limits. Thus the probable reason for a 1 to 1 ratio of muscle and fat gain in the last week. I find If I'm eating "healthy" the ratios tend to stay very close to the original macro's and thus not really changing any thing.

In absolute weight, I'm up 0.2 pounds. BF% is down 0.6%. Average weight is up 0.5 pounds, average BF% is 0.0. Seems like averaging 2,000 cals definitely is maintenance level for me. Back is 90%. Still on track to start doing some light workouts next week.

Weight chart

www.physicsdiet.com/Chart.ashx?t=Wei
gh
tLoss&s=2010-05-30&e=2010-06-06&u=billb

BF % chart

www.physicsdiet.com/Chart.ashx?t=Bod
yF
at&s=2010-05-30&e=2010-06-06&u=billb

Cal 2626
cho 350 (54.9)
pro 162 (25.5)
fat 56 (19.6)

End of week 3 week 1 of eat what ever the hell ya want.

Actual starting weight 159.0 BF % 13.3
End of 2 week 50-30-20 159.8
Actual current weight 161.6
Average weight for the 3 weeks 160.1
average BF % 13.6
Average gain .5 lbs per week.

Charts www.physicsdiet.com/Public.aspx?u=da
ns
tout

Looking at the charts, not suprisingly The body fat has crept up a little during the eat what ya want phase. Is it enough to warrant being strict on macro nutrients? Maybe, depends on how bad ya hate to cut :)

cal 1968 (what a great year)
cho 235g (59.6%)
pro 110g (28.0%)
fat 21g (12.2%)

I'd say that 5% is in the right range for error on a scale without athlete mode based on my experience as well as that of 4A.

My BF% running average on couch potato was 30-30.5% when I calipered at 17-25% and the athlete mode was reading something in the 22-24% range. physicsdiet.com/Chart.ashx?t=BodyFat
&s
=2009-06-04&e=2010-06-04&u=aack

It appears that 4A was in the 25-27% range and her athlete mode was reading in the 17-20% range. physicsdiet.com/Chart.ashx?t=BodyFat
&s
=2009-06-04&e=2010-06-04&u=4a-healthR>y-bmi

On another note, after playing around and getting more familiar with the calipers, I get a consistent 13.7% BF, Almost exactly 5% different than the POS. Will monitor both and see if it remains constant.

jiminey jeezus, dan has me down to the minute with the rum.

A heavy day for rum and fruit. What a combination.

cal 1974
cho 223g (55.9%)
pro 126g (31.6%)
fat 22g (12.5%)
alc 450 cals

Cal 2618
cho 337 (51.1%)
pro 152 (23%)
Fat 76 (25.9%)

Seems I eat the spark macro when left to my own devices.
Craptastic day. Gonna add A Beam and coke to this later, Got the rum open yet Bill?

Neat on the BF%. I'd be curious to know if the scale is always 3 to 4% too high or if it's random.

Back is 70%, but definitely improving. I may start doing light workouts next week.

cal 2018
cho 299g (56.2%)
pro 165g (30.9%)
fat 30g (12.8%)

Still gaining, another new high this morning, but my BF% is going down (a little) according to POS scale. I suspect my weight will start coming down a little as well.

cal 2542
cho 361 (54.6)
pro 158 (23.9) Still 1g per lb aprox.
fat 63 (21.5)

Update: As of this AM I'm up 2.2 lbs over the total period, with 1.4 coming this week, I'm still on the downward trend from my weekly bounce. Have to see where it ends up. The POS say's 1.2 lbs are muscle and 1lb is fat.
The calipers have come in and prelim readings are the POS is 3 to 4 % too high, I'll know more in the am.

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/3/2010 (19:02)

Cal 2704
cho 368 (52.9%)
pro 208 (29.9%)
fat 53 (17.2%)

Little light of fats today Might eat about 150 cals of peanuts for snack. :) Half a$$ day today.

Same today, 1900-2100 range. I think my back is on the mend. Certainly not 100%, but not as bitchy.

cal 2041
cho 270g (51.7%)
pro 166g (31.7%)
fat 39g (16.6%)

Focused on calories only. Back to maintenance levels.

cals 1938
cho 249g (48.1%)
pro 169g (32.7%)
fat 44g (19.2%)

Doesn't seem like I'm deviating too much from the baseline diet. Hrm.

On with the experiment!

Cals 2593
cho 320 (48.4%)
pro 154 (23.4%)
fat 83 (28.2%)

Not suprising when you don't make a plan and eat what ya feel like the fat content sneaks up. But still within sparks recommended levels.
Easy day, no extra shake.

Making a plan to make a plan eh? Sounds like a good idea.
Here's a link for the correct form on every exercise you can think of

www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 6/1/2010 (16:53)

I think you're dead on. I recently increased weight across the board (bi's, tri's, chest, abs). I think my new weight for abs + the "new" form was a completely bad idea. The new curling weight produced sh*t form which exacerbated the prior day's bad idea. Lesson learned.

I certainly don't feel like I need a doc yet. But I don't think I need to be lifting either. If it's not showing improvement by next week, maybe a doc is in order.

I got my new book today too. I guess maybe this is a good time to take a break and make a better plan. Truth be told, I haven't been super thrilled with my workout routine. I need more compound exercises (think squats, deadlifts, etc). So maybe this is my opportunity to research what I need to do these and more importantly, spend time performing these exercises with the BAR ONLY to get proper form.

I'm just guessing here but if you popped your back doing curls, my guess is the weight was too heavy for correct form. If you have to "Put your back" into an arm curl, it's too much weight. Think slow controlled arm strength only.
On any strain / pull the correct self medication is cold compress for the 1st 24 hours and then apply heat after. Oh, and see a Dr. as needed.
I'd go slow at first to test the waters when your ready.

I guess. What do you recommend? It doesn't hurt that bad, honestly (or maybe I'm just telling myself that .. heh). There's just a friendly reminder whenever I move, bend over, stand up that it's a little bitchy. So I stand by my "mild sprain" diagnosis. heh.

I'm trying to figure out how I want to break back into lifting. I think I'm going to have to lower my weight and maybe not train to exhaustion for a couple of weeks. Or maybe I don't? Seems like I'll want to "test" it.

I guess that's just another topic to research. heh.

I quit insanity the 1st time because my knee wouldn't take the every day pounding. I quit it the second time (P90X / Insanity Hybrid) to not lose more weight :)
Time to hit the ol back with some heat tonight huh?

I have started the path to gain, I had a very easy wed and thursday at work and took friday through monday off. Started to put some weight on at these levels and not working. So, Hard work days I'm going to add an extra protein shake (about 300 cals), otherwise keep it at these levels as I'm seeing some muscle growth.

Ya, I think I'm going to ratchet calories back to maintenance level (2000ish) for the short term. My back feels about the same today. It's not horrible, but it certainly ain't right. I'm leaning towards a mild strain.

I hit another fresh high today on weight as well. I'd be happier about that if I was able to lift some of it to muscle. LOL.

Not that I'd think you'd do anything else Dan, but you certainly have my blessing and understanding to do whatever you want. If I were you, I'd ratchet up another 200-300 calories and see if you can gain weight.

Bummer, bill. Better safe than sorry though. Wait till it gets better before you get back.

I thought you quit insanity because you didn't want to lose any more weight? Well, that sucks too. Anyway, the comedy of errors continued this evening. I'll spare you the drama:

cals 2013
cho 268g (49.6%)
pro 172g (31.9%)
fat 44g (18.5%)

Not bad ratios for not paying attention. Just horrible level of intake.

I hear ya, I hated to have to drop insanity but my reconstructed knee just could not take it.

Cal 2763
cho 389 (55.1%)
pro 201 (28.5%)
fat 51 (16.4%)

This makes me a sad panda.

2 to 3 weeks is not out of question, of course it may be only a couple of days. Thats the beauty of redundancy in experiments. :)

I'll do that! I'm digging around the internets, since I'm not one to get injured ... I wasn't sure what to do. But I'm seeing lots of people saying that if it's a "minor" strain (which I assume it is) that the heal time is 2 to 3 WEEKS?!?!?

Take it from the "old" guy :) Ice it down, take ibuprofin and rest it. Drop the experiment, cut down to your maintenance level or below and make sure it's completely healed before picking it back up.

Edited by: DANSTOUT at: 5/31/2010 (18:32)